比爾·蓋茨：我當(dāng)然更樂觀，因?yàn)樵?015年簽署《巴黎協(xié)定》時，有很多排放領(lǐng)域都沒有任何活動跡象。例如工業(yè)領(lǐng)域，對大多數(shù)國家來說，這是最大的一個領(lǐng)域。其中包括
等。沒有哪個聰明人說："天吶，讓我們重新思考一下如何生產(chǎn)鋼鐵吧"。我們已經(jīng)很久沒有在這方面做出根本性的改變，或者重新思考我們?nèi)绾巫鏊唷?/div>
As part of that 2015 event, President Obama and I, and President Hollande, and Prime Minister Modi did an event called Mission Innovation that said, "Hey, we need to do more R&D, we need to have more venture capital, we need to come up with more solutions." It was a leap of faith whether there would be ideas, and so I raised a billion dollars very quickly from individuals for the first Breakthrough Energy Venture fund. We said we will only invest in things that can get rid of a half-percent of global emissions. It is an extreme single-purpose venture activity.
作為2015年活動的一部分，奧巴馬總統(tǒng)和我、奧朗德總統(tǒng)以及莫迪總理舉辦了一場名為“創(chuàng)新使命”的活動，他們說，“嘿，我們需要進(jìn)行更多的研發(fā)，我們需要更多的風(fēng)險投資，我們需要提出更多的解決方案。”這是對想法是否會成立的一次大膽嘗試，我很快就從個人手中籌集了10億美元，成立了第一個突破能源風(fēng)險基金。我們說，我們只投資那些能減少全球一半排放量的項(xiàng)目。這是極端單一目的的風(fēng)險投資活動。
Now we have raised over $3 billion, we have over 100 companies, and I have to say, instead of not being able to find good ideas, we have found so many good ideas. We have multiple approaches in each of the areas. In steel, we have four different approaches, and in cement, we have four different approaches, like carbon capture, quite a few approaches.
現(xiàn)在我們已經(jīng)籌集了30多億美元，投資了100多家公司，我不得不說，我們不是找不到好主意，而是找到了太多好主意。我們在每個領(lǐng)域都有多種方法。在鋼鐵領(lǐng)域，我們有四種不同的方法，在水泥領(lǐng)域，我們有四種不同的方法，比如碳捕獲，有相當(dāng)多的方法。
Although a lot of these are still lab-level results, and the path to get from the lab level to pilot plants, and then try to scale those things up and get the extra costs, or what I call the green premium down, is still going to be super-hard, as to how we get rich countries, rich companies, rich individuals to help us get to the magic point where the green approach doesn’t cost any more, or the green premium of zero. But what I’ve seen is way more than sitting there in 2015, announcing Breakthrough Energy, as to what I expected to see.
其中很多仍是實(shí)驗(yàn)室層面的成果，而從實(shí)驗(yàn)室層面到試點(diǎn)工廠，再到嘗試擴(kuò)大規(guī)模，降低額外成本或我所說的綠色溢價，這條路仍將是極其艱難的——我們要如何讓富裕的國家、富裕的公司、富裕的個人幫助我們達(dá)到一個神奇的節(jié)點(diǎn)——即綠色方法不再花費(fèi)更多成本，或綠色溢價為零。但我見識到的，已經(jīng)遠(yuǎn)比我在2015年坐在那里宣告突破能源時預(yù)期的要多。
HANNAH RITCHIE: I feel the same, but against the common narrative, I would say I feel more optimistic than I did a decade ago. I think the area you are mostly talking about, those hard-to-abate sectors, steel, cement, et cetera, even if you look at the relatively easy sectors to beat—electricity for example—if you go back a decade, solar and wind were the most expensive energy sources we had. Since then, the price of solar has dropped 90%, and the price of wind has dropped 70%, and electric vehicles are now economically viable. When I was sitting in 2015, I could not foresee a future where any of these would be economically viable, not only for rich countries, but for middle- or low-income countries.
BILL GATES: Yes, the two areas where we have made the most progress on getting green premiums down is parts of electricity generation and the high end of the automotive market. We still have a lot of work to do for the low end of the automotive market, particularly for somebody who doesn’t have a garage where they could charge their car at night. The electricity challenge is still a bit daunting because when you have weather dependent sources, if you have things like a cold snap, and you are relying on electricity to heat buildings, then did you have large energy storage? Or do you have baseload things like fission or fusion that are able to come in with that load that you can’t delay? You can’t say, "Okay, I’ll warm your home a couple days from now," but you have to do it right as the cold snap sinks in.
比爾·蓋茨：是的，我們在降低綠色溢價方面進(jìn)展最大的兩個領(lǐng)域是部分發(fā)電領(lǐng)域和高端汽車市場。對于低端汽車市場，我們還有很多工作要做，特別是對于那些沒有車庫可以在晚上給汽車充電的人來說。電力方面的挑戰(zhàn)仍然令人望而生畏，因?yàn)楫?dāng)你使用依賴天氣的能源時，如果遇到寒流等情況，而你又依賴電力為建筑物供暖，那么你是否擁有大型儲能設(shè)備？或者，你是否有像核裂變或核聚變這樣的基荷設(shè)備，能夠?yàn)槟闾幚砟切┘皶r的負(fù)荷需求？你不能說，“好吧，我過幾天再給你家供暖?！蹦惚仨氃诤鱽砼R時立即供暖。
We haven’t solved electricity, but we can see that the pieces are coming together, particularly if we get better forms of fusion or fission that could come in and play that complementary baseload picture.
我們?nèi)詻]有解決電力問題，但我們可以看到，這些問題正在逐步得到解決，特別是如果我們能獲得更好的核聚變或核裂變形式，就能發(fā)揮基荷互補(bǔ)的作用。
The miracle of lithium-ion batteries, the miracle of solar panels, that’s the kind of thing we need to duplicate in all of the areas of emissions. As you say, I organized an extra panel on solar panels in 2015 and had them project how far would it go down, and it has gone down further than even the most optimistic of those people thought it would. These learning curve innovations often can surprise us on the positive side.
鋰離子電池的奇跡、太陽能電池板的奇跡，這些都是我們需要在所有排放領(lǐng)域復(fù)制的。正如你所說，我在2015年組織了一個額外的太陽能電池板項(xiàng)目，預(yù)測其價格會下降多少，結(jié)果下降的幅度甚至超過了最樂觀的人的預(yù)期。這些符合學(xué)習(xí)曲線的創(chuàng)新往往能在積極的一面給我們帶來驚喜。
HANNAH RITCHIE: On deployment, if you look at any of the forecasts for deployment of solar, even the most optimistic ones are really long.
BILL GATES: Yes, but in a lot of countries, we are now running into, though it varies by country, the willingness to permit wind, or solar in your backyard, and then because those are often far away from where the electricity is needed, there is the challenge in the permitting of the transmission. To build this green grid, which will have to provide probably two-and-a-half times as much electricity as we use today, there are still some obstacles. The rate of installation has to continue to go up. Yet we’re seeing, like offshore wind, where the bid process did not go forward, but I think that will get fixed in some way, and there is onshore permitting and transmission, and so we really have to plan on this mix of policy and innovation to get rid of those bottlenecks.
比爾·蓋茨：是的，但在許多國家，我們現(xiàn)在遇到的問題是，雖然各國情況不同，但是否愿意允許在自家后院安裝風(fēng)能或太陽能發(fā)電設(shè)備，由于這些設(shè)備通常遠(yuǎn)離需要用電的地方，因此在輸電許可方面存在挑戰(zhàn)。要建造這樣的綠色電網(wǎng)，它將必須提供相當(dāng)于我們現(xiàn)在使用的2.5倍的電力，這仍然有一些障礙。安裝速度必須繼續(xù)提高。然而，我們也看到，比如海上風(fēng)電，競標(biāo)過程沒有進(jìn)展，但我認(rèn)為這將以某種方式得到解決，還有陸上輸電和許可問題，我們必須計(jì)劃將政策和創(chuàng)新結(jié)合起來，以擺脫這些瓶頸。
HANNAH RITCHIE: On optimism, I often try to promote the message of optimism, not that this stuff will just happen on its own, but that we have the ability to solve these problems. These problems are solvable, and we are making progress. I expect you probably do the same. How do you balance trying to promote an optimistic message without sounding like you’re underplaying the issue?
漢娜·里奇：關(guān)于樂觀，我經(jīng)常試圖傳遞樂觀，不是說這些事情會自然而然地變好，而是說我們有能力解決這些問題。這些問題是可以解決的，我們正在取得進(jìn)展。我猜你也會這么做。你如何在嘗試傳遞樂觀的同時又不讓人覺得你低估了這個問題?
BILL GATES: That’s a real challenge. How do you promote the problem without over-depressing people? You can err on the negative side, like just showing pictures of kids dying of malaria, and people are like, "Okay, I’m not going to Africa. I don’t want to hear about this again."
比爾·蓋茨：這確實(shí)是個挑戰(zhàn)。如何在傳遞這件事的同時又不至于讓人們過度沮喪？你會在消極的一面犯錯誤，比如只展示孩子們死于瘧疾的照片，那么人們就會說，“好吧，我不去非洲了。我不想再聽到這些了?！?/div>
Even in climate, some people are despairing because they see that we’re falling short in a lot of ways. It’s a huge collective action problem in terms of every country, every area of emissions to try and get all the way to zero. It’s striking that balance, and I think in your recent TED Talk, you did a good job of that. Hans Rosling, I think we both think of as someone who has inspired us, where he was much more in the health domain, but I still consider his TED Talk one of the most profound TED Talks ever given, because it was both about the need to do more, but a sense of hope for the incredible progress of what we’ve done on health.
即使在氣候方面，一些人也感到絕望，因?yàn)樗麄兛吹轿覀冊诤芏喾矫娑甲龅貌粔?。這是一個復(fù)雜的集體行動問題，每個國家、每個排放領(lǐng)域都要努力實(shí)現(xiàn)零排放。我認(rèn)為在你最近的TED演講中，你在這方面做得很好。漢斯·羅斯林（Hans Rosling），我想我們都認(rèn)為他給了我們很多啟發(fā)，他在健康領(lǐng)域做得更多，我仍然認(rèn)為他的TED演講是有史以來最深刻的TED演講之一，因?yàn)樗壬婕暗叫枰龈嗟氖虑?，也涉及到對我們在健康領(lǐng)域所取得的令人難以置信的進(jìn)展的希望。
HANNAH RITCHIE: Before I spoke with Hans Rosling I was very pessimistic. He has had a profound impact. I think one nice framing that I like is my colleague Max Roser has this Venn diagram that shows the fact that you can hold three thoughts at the same time.
漢娜·里奇：在與漢斯·羅斯林交談之前，我非常悲觀。他對我產(chǎn)生了深遠(yuǎn)的影響。我喜歡的一個很好的思維建構(gòu)是我的同事馬克斯·羅澤爾（Max Roser）的維恩圖，它顯示了你可以同時持有三種想法。
One, the world is awful, one the world is much better, and the third one being the world can be much better. If you even take the simple example of child mortality, the world is awful and 5 million children die every year, which is completely unacceptable, because most of those deaths are preventable. But a few decades ago, you had 12 million dying, so the world is better than it was. By looking at that perspective, you can see it is actually possible that we can then make things better in the future.
其一，這個世界很糟糕；其二，這個世界已經(jīng)好多了；其三，這個世界可以變得更好。以兒童死亡率為例，世界依然很糟糕，每年有500萬兒童死亡，這是完全無法接受的，因?yàn)榇蠖鄶?shù)的死亡是可以預(yù)防的。但在幾十年前，有1200萬兒童死亡，所以這個世界比以前好多了。從這個角度來看，你就會發(fā)現(xiàn)，我們其實(shí)有可能在未來把事情做得更好。
I think you can even relate that to climate, where we’re currently on track for around 2.5 degrees, which is completely unacceptable, and we need to bring that down, and so the world is still awful. But a decade ago, we were on track for 3 to 4 degrees, and so we are getting there. We are getting there too slowly, but we can see by looking backwards at progress that we can continue to move things forward.
我認(rèn)為你甚至可以將其與氣候聯(lián)系起來，目前全球溫升或達(dá)到2.5攝氏度，這是完全無法接受的，我們需要將其降下來，這個世界依然很糟糕。但在十年前，當(dāng)時的預(yù)估是全球溫升或達(dá)到3至4攝氏度，這么看我們正在實(shí)現(xiàn)這一目標(biāo)。我們的進(jìn)展太慢了，但我們可以通過回顧過去的進(jìn)展看到，我們可以繼續(xù)向前邁進(jìn)。
BILL GATES: Yes, these positive datapoints are amazing. For instance, in your book, which is coming out in January, and I was lucky enough to get an early copy, you talked about how emissions in the UK, per person, are actually down quite dramatically, because it was really coal driven, but now it is essentially not at all. That’s fantastic. There’s still a fair bit of natural gas, and so it’s not completely green, but it’s a sign of what can be done, just like the childhood death number.
比爾·蓋茨：是的，這些積極的數(shù)據(jù)令人驚嘆。比如，在你一月份即將出版的書中，我有幸提前拿到了一本，你談到了英國的人均排放量是如何大幅下降的，因?yàn)橐郧坝呐欧帕看_實(shí)是由煤炭驅(qū)動的，但現(xiàn)在基本上沒有了。這太棒了。雖然仍有相當(dāng)一部分使用天然氣，所以還不是完全綠色，但這是一個跡象——我們可以做什么，就像兒童死亡人數(shù)一樣。
When I showed climate activists that we’ve gone from 10 million to 5 million they were like, "No? What? Why didn’t somebody tell us that?" It’s sort of this report card for humanity, that we should say, "Wow, what did we do right?" How did we build Gavi? The UK contributed to Gavi, and the whole world came together to do something incredible.
當(dāng)我向氣候活動家展示我們已經(jīng)從1000萬減少到500萬時，他們說，“不是吧？為什么沒人告訴我們？”這是我們?nèi)祟惖某煽儐?，我們?yīng)該說，“看吧，我們做對了什么？”我們是如何建立Gavi的？英國為Gavi做出了貢獻(xiàn)，整個世界一起做了一件不可思議的事情。
We set a goal of getting from 5 million to 2.5 million by 2030, and because of the Ukrainian war, interest rates, and the African debt, we will miss that – it will be sometime between 2035 and 2040 when we get that second halving of childhood deaths, all the way down to 2.5 million.
我們設(shè)定的目標(biāo)是到2030年將兒童死亡人數(shù)從500萬減少到250萬，但由于俄烏沖突、利率和非洲債務(wù)等原因，我們將無法實(shí)現(xiàn)這一目標(biāo)——到2035年至2040年之間的某個時候，我們才能實(shí)現(xiàn)兒童死亡人數(shù)的第二次減半，即減少到250萬。
HANNAH RITCHIE: Right, I think there’s a difference between what I might call complacent optimism or stupid optimism, where you look at the trendline going down and say, "Yeah, we’ll just continue," but you know what? It won’t continue; you have to push it. I think we would frame that as impatient optimism that, yes, there’s been this progress, but how do we drive more of it?
漢娜·里奇：是的，我認(rèn)為我的樂觀和我稱之為自滿的樂觀或愚蠢的樂觀之間是有區(qū)別的，在這種情況下，你看著下降的趨勢線說，“是的，我們會繼續(xù)下去”，但你知道嗎，它不會自己繼續(xù)，除非你推動它。我認(rèn)為，我們可以把這種情況稱為樂天行動派，我們已經(jīng)取得了進(jìn)展，但我們?nèi)绾瓮苿痈嗟倪M(jìn)展呢？
BILL GATES: Yes, I just came from Senegal, where the Foundation had its annual science meeting, and I was just so inspired by the scientists. We have new ideas to dramatically reduce maternal mortality and new ideas, particularly within the first 30 days of life, where over half of those deaths in the first five years were actually in the first 30 days. We have had vaccines for the rest of that time which have been miraculous, but we now have very cheap, miraculous interventions for that first 30 days. This will let us make the next stage of progress, but it is by funding those scientists, and then figuring out how do you scale this stuff up, even in tough places, so that we can get the end result.
比爾·蓋茨：我剛從塞內(nèi)加爾回來，基金會在那里舉行了年度科學(xué)會議，科學(xué)家們給了我很大啟發(fā)。我們有新的想法來大幅降低孕產(chǎn)婦死亡率，特別是在出生后的前30天，在出生后的前5年里，超過一半的死亡實(shí)際上發(fā)生在前30天。前30天之外，我們使用疫苗而疫苗發(fā)揮了神奇的作用，現(xiàn)在，我們有了成本低廉、神奇的干預(yù)措施，可以用于生命最初的30天。這將促進(jìn)我們?nèi)〉孟乱浑A段的進(jìn)展，這是通過資助這些科學(xué)家，才弄清楚如何擴(kuò)大這些東西的規(guī)模，包括在一些艱苦的地方，這樣我們才能取得最終結(jié)果。
HANNAH RITCHIE: Bringing it back to climate, I know you get excited about innovation. What are some of the areas that you’re most excited about for innovation? Where do you think the gaps are, where we are not making progress?
漢娜·里奇：回到氣候問題上，我知道你對創(chuàng)新感到興奮。你對哪些領(lǐng)域的創(chuàng)新最感興趣？你認(rèn)為差距在哪里，我們在哪里還沒有取得進(jìn)展?
BILL GATES: Across this portfolio of 100 companies it’s hard to pick my favorite. Some are kind of straightforward, like a company that makes windows where the temperature doesn’t cross over, but instead, it blocks getting cold in the winter or hot in the summer, which is very cheap. Or there is a company where you leave your home, and you pump this air through, but it’s got a chemical in it. When it sees cracks, it actually seals those cracks. You don’t have to find the cracks; you just pump the air in.
比爾·蓋茨：在這100家公司中，很難選出我最喜歡的。有些是簡單明了的，比如有一家公司生產(chǎn)的窗戶其溫度不會隨氣溫變化，相反，它可以阻擋冬天的寒冷或夏天的炎熱，這種窗戶非常便宜。還有一家公司，你離開家后，把空氣打進(jìn)去，但里面有一種化學(xué)物質(zhì)。當(dāng)它看到裂縫時，就會把裂縫封住。你不需要找到裂縫，只需把空氣打進(jìn)去。
You can reduce the amount of heat loss between the windows and getting rid of those cracks. You can reduce the energy bill by a factor of two, which then means less load on the overall energy system. That one is not high tech. It’s not like TerraPower fission, or Commonwealth Fusion Tokamak design, which there are still some risks in that.
你可以減少窗戶之間的熱量損失，堵住那些裂縫。你可以將供暖賬單減少兩倍，這意味著整個能源系統(tǒng)的負(fù)荷減少。這不是什么高科技，它不像泰拉能源（TerraPower）的核裂變，或者托卡馬克核聚變，其中仍然有一些風(fēng)險。
In areas like industrial heat, today when you want to do an industrial process, which people don’t visit very often, but you burn natural gas, and you get this very high temperature. We have shown with several companies in the portfolio that by using solar panels, and just heating a very cheap, brick-like substance, you can actually get industrial heat cheaper than burning natural gas without any government consideration of the CO2 that natural gas puts out.
在工業(yè)用熱等領(lǐng)域，今天，當(dāng)你想進(jìn)行工業(yè)加工時，人們并不經(jīng)常去那里參觀，但燃燒天然氣會產(chǎn)生非常高的溫度。我們已經(jīng)與幾家公司合作證明，通過使用太陽能電池板，只需加熱一種非常廉價的磚塊狀物質(zhì)，就能獲得比燃燒天然氣更便宜的工業(yè)用熱，而無需政府考慮天然氣產(chǎn)生的二氧化碳。
Those companies are really scaling up because it works. It’s economic, it doesn’t require that much of a policy. You get wins in some of those areas that can move out fairly quickly. The cement and steel ones are the ones, in a way, I’m most impressed by, because I wasn’t sure we’d find anything in those spaces.
這些公司確實(shí)在擴(kuò)大規(guī)模，因?yàn)樗兄行АＫ芙?jīng)濟(jì)，不需要那么多政策。在這些領(lǐng)域中，你可以很快取得勝利。在某種程度上，水泥和鋼鐵行業(yè)給我留下了最深刻的印象，我不確定我們會在這些領(lǐng)域找到什么。
HANNAH RITCHIE: To explain the cement thing, around half of emissions from cement just come from the energy used to produce it. You could decarbonize that. The problem, I guess, with cement is that you are taking basically limestone, and then you are converting it to calcium oxide. But the byproduct you get in that conversion process is CO2. Basically, you need a way to capture that CO2.
漢娜·里奇：解釋一下水泥的問題，水泥的排放量約有一半來自生產(chǎn)水泥的能源。你可以將其去碳化。我想，水泥的問題在于，基本上是使用石灰石，然后將其轉(zhuǎn)化為氧化鈣。但在轉(zhuǎn)化過程中產(chǎn)生的副產(chǎn)品就是二氧化碳?；旧?，需要一種捕獲二氧化碳的方法。
BILL GATES: Yes. Limestone is calcium carbonate, and you use natural gas, which by burning that creates CO2. As you heat the limestone, that releases CO2. It’s exactly as you say, it’s an equal number amount of emissions.
比爾·蓋茨：石灰石是碳酸鈣，你使用天然氣，天然氣燃燒會產(chǎn)生二氧化碳。當(dāng)你加熱石灰石時，會釋放出二氧化碳。正如你所說，這是等量排放。
One of our companies doesn’t use limestone. They actually go and find another source of calcium, which fortunately turns out to be quite abundant and cheap. They make exactly the same cement that we make today, but not using limestone as the input. I was stunned that you could do that.
我們有一家公司不用石灰石。他們實(shí)際上是去尋找另一種鈣源，幸運(yùn)的是，這種鈣源相當(dāng)豐富而且便宜。他們生產(chǎn)的水泥與我們今天生產(chǎn)的一模一樣，但不使用石灰石作為原料。我驚呆了，竟然能做到這一點(diǎn)。
We have other companies that make things that are slightly different than Portland cement, that they think is good for many applications, but getting the certification of the building codes and everything, of course, people are very conservative about. Okay, how good is it going to be 20 years from now, when cars are crossing this bridge? Will it work well?
我們有其他公司生產(chǎn)的水泥與硅酸鹽水泥略有不同，他們認(rèn)為硅酸鹽水泥在很多應(yīng)用中都很好，但要獲得建筑規(guī)范和所有方面的
認(rèn)證，當(dāng)然了，人們非常保守。20年后，當(dāng)汽車駛過這座橋時，它的承載力如何？它還能好好的嗎？
One company took a risk on the mineral source, another company took the risk on the certification process. They’re rolling out and seeing which geographies the different approaches get adopted in.
一家公司在礦物來源上承擔(dān)風(fēng)險，另一家公司在認(rèn)證過程中承擔(dān)風(fēng)險。他們正在進(jìn)行推廣，看看哪些地區(qū)采用了不同的方法。
HANNAH RITCHIE: You mentioned a few times the green premium. For those that maybe don’t know what that is, do you want to briefly explain what the green premium means?
漢娜?里奇：你多次提到綠色溢價。對于那些可能不知道這是什么的人，你想簡單解釋一下綠色溢價是什么意思嗎?
BILL GATES: There’s the current way of making things, and then there is a new way of making them that has no emissions. You could say the brute force way is to say, okay, I’ll still make it the old way, but I’ll pay for some direct air capture person to pull those things out of the air. For something like cement, that would mean that cement would be twice as expensive.
比爾·蓋茨：目前的制造方式，和一種新的、不會產(chǎn)生排放的制造方式。簡單來說，我還是用老方法制造，但我要花錢請人進(jìn)行碳捕獲。對于水泥這樣的東西來說，這意味著水泥的價格將是原來的兩倍。
When you say to India, please do that, make your cement twice as expensive, they’re like, hey, we have emitted nothing, compared to you, on a per capita basis. We’re still providing basic shelter, and you’re building things that are more than you need. Only if you subsidize us will that work.
當(dāng)你對印度說，請這樣做，讓你們的水泥貴一倍時，他們會說，嘿，與你們相比，按人均計(jì)算，我們什么也沒排放。我們還在提供基本的住所，而你們卻在建造超出你們需要的東西。只有你們給我們補(bǔ)貼，這才行得通。
The idea is, you want to go back and rethink the whole cement process, either how you capture that CO2 before it gets emitted. Electric cars are a really good example. It’s a rethink of how you propel the car. Now, it requires you to also take your electricity system and get that to zero, but you’re going to need to do that anyway. It means the size of the electricity system, just for the cars alone, cars and buses, your electricity system has to be about 40% larger than it is today. You have to make it green.
我們的想法是，重新思考整個水泥生產(chǎn)過程，或者重新思考如何在二氧化
碳排放之前將其捕獲。電動汽車就是一個很好的例子。這需要重新思考如何推動汽車。現(xiàn)在，這需要你同時使用電力系統(tǒng)并將排放歸零，但無論如何，你都需要這樣做。這意味著電力系統(tǒng)的規(guī)?！獌H就汽車和
公交車而言——就必須比現(xiàn)在大40%。你必須讓它綠色環(huán)保。
Whenever people say we have a certain percentage of renewables, essentially 200% renewables up from 15%. It is ambitious, but we measure in every area, what is the current green premium?
每當(dāng)人們說我們有一定比例的可再生能源時，可再生能源基本上從15%上升到200%。雄心可嘉，但我們在每個領(lǐng)域都會衡量，目前的綠色溢價是多少？
Some of you may have tried Impossible Burgers or Beyond Meat. That beef, you can think of the green premium as two things. It, today, has a cost premium, and it doesn’t taste quite as good – it’s close – as the real thing. Those companies have a challenge. Now, people who care about climate, it’s great, they are willing to create that bootstrap market. But the big win is if they get the cost below normal beef, and they get the taste so you truly can’t tell. I’m quite optimistic that a whole set of companies are headed towards achieving that over the next five to 10 years.
你們中的一些人可能嘗試過“Impossible Burgers”或“Beyond Meat”。這種人造牛肉的綠色溢價有兩個方面。目前，它的成本溢價，另外它的味道并不像真正的牛肉那么好。這些公司面臨著挑戰(zhàn)。現(xiàn)在，關(guān)心氣候問題的人們愿意創(chuàng)造這個引導(dǎo)市場，這很好。但最大的贏家是，如果他們能把成本降到低于正常牛肉的水平，而且他們能把味道做到讓你無法分辨。我很樂觀地認(rèn)為，在未來五到十年內(nèi)，會有一大批公司朝著這個目標(biāo)前進(jìn)。
HANNAH RITCHIE: You read my mind, because this morning, I put out an article saying that meat substitutes are too expensive. [Laughter]
漢娜·里奇：你讀懂了我的心思，今天早上，我發(fā)表了一篇文章，說肉類替代品太貴了。[笑聲]
BILL GATES: No, they are definitely too expensive. They are around 50% more expensive. I think it is more that they haven’t matched the taste. They’ve got to change both of those in order to be mainstream. Today, only a few percent of beef is made without a cow. [Laughter]
比爾·蓋茨：它們確實(shí)太貴了。它們要貴50%左右。另外更多的原因是它們的味道不一致。他們必須改變這兩點(diǎn)，才能成為主流。今天，只有為數(shù)不多的牛肉是在沒有牛的情況下生產(chǎn)的。[笑聲]
HANNAH RITCHIE: In the last decade, we have seen dramatic improvements in solar and wind. We have seen the costs plummet, and we have seen them take off at pretty rapid rates. At the same time, nuclear has come up against opposition, especially in Western countries. What role do you see nuclear playing in the future energy system?
漢娜·里奇：在過去的十年里，我們看到了太陽能和風(fēng)能的巨大進(jìn)步。我們看到成本大幅下降，而且它們以相當(dāng)快的速度增長。與此同時，核能卻遭到了反對，尤其是在西方國家。你認(rèn)為核能在未來的能源體系中扮演什么角色?
BILL GATES: Well, unfortunately, there’s enough challenges with both nuclear fission and fusion that we can’t depend on it. It would be extremely helpful if nuclear fission came up with a product that was both economic, and the provable safety was even better than we have in nuclear today. The nuclear industry basically failed, because their product was too expensive. It wasn’t because of the waste or safety-type issues, which we can get into those, but it was economics.
比爾·蓋茨：不幸的是，核裂變和核聚變都面臨著足夠多的挑戰(zhàn)，我們不能依賴它。如果核裂變能產(chǎn)生一種既經(jīng)濟(jì)又安全的產(chǎn)品，那將會非常有幫助。核工業(yè)基本上失敗了，因?yàn)樗麄兊漠a(chǎn)品太昂貴。這并不是因?yàn)閺U料或安全問題，我們可以討論這些，但它是經(jīng)濟(jì)問題。
First and foremost, you must have a much different economic proposition. The nuclear reactor I’m involved in, TerraPower, we only generate electricity when the renewable sources that have very little marginal costs aren’t generating. We just make heat all day, and then only when the bid price of electricity is high enough, do we actually generate electricity, because otherwise, you have all this capital cost that half the time, the solar bid into that market is going to be very low.
首先，你必須有一個截然不同的經(jīng)濟(jì)主張。我參與的核反應(yīng)堆，泰拉能源，我們只在邊際成本非常低的可再生能源不發(fā)電時才發(fā)電。我們整天都在制造熱能，只有當(dāng)電力的投標(biāo)價格足夠高時，我們才會真正發(fā)電，否則，就會經(jīng)常產(chǎn)生資本成本，太陽能進(jìn)入市場的投標(biāo)將會非常低。
I think fission, we shouldn’t give up on it. I’m involved in that company only because it may be able to make a significant contribution to climate change. There are about 16 fusion companies. They have more challenges. Fission, we understand the science. It is all just engineering and cost. In fusion, there’s even some science of how these plasmas create forces that we are working on. Of the sixteen, Breakthrough Energy is invested in four of them, which are four very different approaches.
我認(rèn)為我們不應(yīng)該放棄核裂變。我參與那家公司是因?yàn)樗锌赡軐夂蜃兓龀鲋卮筘暙I(xiàn)。大約有16家核聚變公司。他們面臨更多的挑戰(zhàn)。我們了解核裂變這門科學(xué)。這只是工程和成本的問題。在核聚變中，我們還在研究一些關(guān)于等離子體如何產(chǎn)生力的科學(xué)。在這16家公司中，突破能源投資了其中的4家，這4家的方式方法截然不同。
I think it’s just a question of when will fusion come along? A cynic might say, okay, it’s always been 40 to 50 years, but the amount of brilliant people working on it is, today approximately 20 times higher than it was 10 years ago. It’s such a variety of approaches, I do think that will come along. But again, we’re not to the point where you can buy one of these things, or even make it part of your plan.
我認(rèn)為這是一個何時會出現(xiàn)核聚變的問題。一個憤世嫉俗的人可能會說，好吧，四五十年總是有的，但今天從事這項(xiàng)工作的杰出人才的數(shù)量大約是十年前的20倍。方法多種多樣，我確實(shí)認(rèn)為會出現(xiàn)這樣的情況。但同樣，我們還沒有到可以購買這些東西的地步，甚至還不能把它作為計(jì)劃的一部分。
HANNAH RITCHIE: We should invest some money in it, and hope that it comes through, but we need to get moving on the rest of the stuff at the same time.
漢娜·里奇：我們應(yīng)該投入一些資金，希望它能實(shí)現(xiàn)，但我們需要同時著手其他的事情。
BILL GATES: That’s right. Certainly, every solar panel we put in, every wind thing we put in is a step forward, because we are going to have this hybrid system that will either be wind plus solar plus a lot of storage, or wind plus solar plus storage, and fission and/or fusion.
比爾·蓋茨：沒錯。我們投入的每一塊太陽能電池板、每一臺風(fēng)能設(shè)備都是向前邁出的一步，因?yàn)槲覀儗碛羞@樣一個混合系統(tǒng)，它要么是風(fēng)能加太陽能加大量儲能，要么是風(fēng)能加太陽能加儲能，再加上核裂變和/或核聚變。
I can’t overstate how much easier it is to solve the problem if you can mix in some degree of fission or fusion that are there to fill in the periods where renewables are not generating. Cold snaps or where you have these cold fronts just sitting there, that’s when houses need the most heating. That’s when neither wind nor solar are generating. Now, if your transmission grid is big enough, maybe somewhere else, there isn’t the cold front, but building those massive transmission grids, we have to accelerate our work on that as well.
如果能在一定程度上混合核裂變或核聚變技術(shù)，在可再生能源不發(fā)電時填補(bǔ)空白，那么問題的解決就會容易得多，這一點(diǎn)我怎么強(qiáng)調(diào)都不為過。寒流或冷鋒來臨時，正是房屋最需要供暖的時候。這時，風(fēng)能和太陽能都無法發(fā)電。現(xiàn)在，如果你的輸電網(wǎng)足夠大，也許在其他地方不會有冷鋒，但要建設(shè)這些大規(guī)模的輸電網(wǎng)，我們必須加快進(jìn)程。
HANNAH RITCHIE: I guess the solar and wind are incredibly cheap. But I can see that once you start getting to the very, very top, that can start to become very expensive. Squeezing out the last 10% or 20% on your total grid could be very expensive.
漢娜·里奇：我想太陽能和風(fēng)能的價格是非常便宜的。但我可以看到，一旦你開始使用最頂級的設(shè)備，價格就會變得非常昂貴。在整個電網(wǎng)中擠出那最后的10%或20%可能會非常昂貴。
BILL GATES: Yes, and all people buy is reliability. They don’t buy electricity. If you say, okay, every once in a while, we have super cheap electricity, there is no bid for that. The bid is 24-hour guaranteed, particularly during heat waves and cold snaps. Breakthrough Energy, its science group is doing a ton of these open source grid models, so people can try out in the face of more extreme weather, okay, how reliable will their grid be?
比爾·蓋茨：電力上，人們買的是可靠性。如果你說，我們偶爾提供超低價的電，那么不會有人出價。讓人們出價的得是24小時保證的電力，尤其是在熱浪和寒流來襲期間。突破能源的科學(xué)小組正在做大量的開源電網(wǎng)模型，這樣人們就可以在面對更極端的天氣時進(jìn)行試驗(yàn)，好吧，他們的電網(wǎng)有多可靠？
HANNAH RITCHIE: Climate change is a global problem. It needs international collaboration. But one thing I don’t necessarily agree with is it is often framed as this homogenous, global story, where in fact, to me, there are very different stories for climate change, depending on where you are in the world. The high-income countries’ story is very different from the middle-income is very different from the low-income.
漢娜·里奇：氣候變化是一個全球性問題。它需要國際合作。但我不一定同意的一點(diǎn)是，氣候變化常常被描述成一個同質(zhì)的全球性問題，而事實(shí)上，在我看來，氣候變化的問題是千差萬別的，這取決于你身處世界的哪個角落。高收入國家的情況與中等收入國家的情況截然不同，與低收入國家的情況也截然不同。
First of all, do you agree with that? How would you frame the differences between those income levels?
首先，你同意這種說法嗎？你如何界定這些收入水平之間的差異？
BILL GATES: Absolutely. The high-income countries have to lead the way. We have the greatest historical emissions, and we have the most risk capital and ability to innovate on these new technologies. We not only owe it to the world to get to zero, we also owe it to them to play the primary role in driving green premiums to zero.
比爾·蓋茨：當(dāng)然。高收入國家必須帶頭。我們的歷史排放量最大，我們擁有最多的風(fēng)險資本和創(chuàng)新這些新技術(shù)的能力。我們不僅有責(zé)任讓全球?qū)崿F(xiàn)零排放，我們也有責(zé)任讓全球在推動綠色溢價實(shí)現(xiàn)零排放方面發(fā)揮主要作用。
Middle-income countries, where you have China as the richest middle-income, India’s the least, and Indonesia, Brazil, Vietnam, almost 70% of all people live in those countries, which is a miracle, because that wasn’t true 50 years ago. They need to reach out and help with the adoption, that’s where this thing is going to be won or lost, is how easy we’ve made it for them to go for adoption.
中等收入國家中，中國是最富裕的中等收入國家，印度是最不富裕的中等收入國家，印度尼西亞、巴西、越南，幾乎70%的人口生活在這些國家，這是一個奇跡，50年前還不是這樣。他們需要伸出援手，并助力適應(yīng)，而整件事的成敗所在，就在于我們讓他們更愿意接受氣候變化適應(yīng)。
The low-income countries, they’re about 4% of emissions. In a sense, they should generate electricity however it is cheapest for them to do, because it is kind of a rounding error. The equities would say that we shouldn’t burden them with this problem, in terms of their energy generation, even though the vast majority of the suffering from climate will be low-income countries.
低收入國家的排放量占總排放量的4%。從某種意義上說，他們應(yīng)該以最廉價的方式發(fā)電，因?yàn)檫@幾乎是可舍去的誤差。公平主義者會說，就能源生產(chǎn)而言，我們不應(yīng)該讓他們負(fù)擔(dān)這個問題，盡管絕大多數(shù)受氣候影響的將是低收入國家。
HANNAH RITCHIE: Right, you were talking about sub-Saharan Africa earlier, and I think cumulatively, the continent as a whole has contributed around 1% of the total emissions. On that note, a question I get asked a lot, because we’re in the UK, is the UK only emits around 1% of the emissions today. Why should we care? Why should we care about reducing our emissions? What role should the UK play in climate change if it only contributes 1%?
漢娜·里奇：是的，你剛才談到了撒哈拉以南非洲地區(qū)，我認(rèn)為整個非洲大陸的累計(jì)排放量約占總排放量的1%。關(guān)于這一點(diǎn)，我經(jīng)常被問到一個問題，因?yàn)槲覀冊谟?，英國目前的排放量只占總排放量?%左右。我們?yōu)槭裁匆P(guān)心這個問題？我們?yōu)槭裁匆P(guān)注減排？如果只占1%，英國在氣候變化中應(yīng)該扮演什么角色？
BILL GATES: Well, this is a collective action problem. There will be countries, like maybe Russia, that bringing them into this collective action might be difficult. If you really want to get to true zero, you might have to use direct air capture to cancel out the most recalcitrant, and maybe the low-income emissions as well. That’s where it might play a role.
比爾·蓋茨：這是一個集體行動問題。將會有一些國家，比如俄羅斯，將他們納入集體行動可能會很困難。如果你真的想達(dá)到真正的零排放，你可能必須使用直接空氣捕獲來抵消最頑固的排放，也許還需要抵消低收入國家的排放。這就是英國可能扮演一個角色。
Overall, the Paris Agreement was a milestone. It’s not an enforceable thing. Even the U.S. would not have adopted it. In fact, we de-adopted it for four years and then re-adopted it. [Laughter]
總的來說，《巴黎協(xié)定》是一個里程碑。但這不是一個可強(qiáng)制執(zhí)行的事情。美國也沒有采納它。事實(shí)上，我們退出了四年，然后又重返回來。[笑聲]
This will never get solved if the rich countries take that type of approach of, okay, we’re not that big a piece of the problem.
如果富裕國家采取這種態(tài)度——好吧，我們不是問題的一部分——這個問題永遠(yuǎn)不會得到解決。
The UK has done a lot of things very well. I have on my phone where I can look for all the countries and see, okay, the electricity they’re generating, exactly how much carbon is coming out of the different systems. It’s come a long way, and the overall global footprint for electricity generation has come a long way.
英國在很多方面都做得很好。我可以在手機(jī)上查到所有國家的發(fā)電量，以及不同系統(tǒng)的碳排放量。我們已經(jīng)走過了漫長的道路，全球發(fā)電的總體足跡也已經(jīng)有了長足的進(jìn)步。
HANNAH RITCHIE: In the climate space, the focus is on emissions reduction. Now, there are a few things that people would say can come across as a way to get out of reducing emissions or a moral hazard for not taking this seriously enough. One of them is carbon removal, and the other one is adaptation. How do you think about the balance of those within the total mix of addressing climate change?
漢娜·里奇：在氣候領(lǐng)域，重點(diǎn)是減排?，F(xiàn)在，人們會說，有幾件事可能會被認(rèn)為是逃避減排的一種方式，或者是對這一問題不夠重視的一種道德風(fēng)險。其中之一是碳消除，另一個是氣候變化適應(yīng)。你如何看待這些措施在應(yīng)對氣候變化的整體組合中的平衡？
BILL GATES: Adaptation covers a broad range of things. In rich countries, that means you have to look at forest fire risk and see, okay, exactly where it might happen? Do you have the appropriate barriers? You have to think about sea level rise and where are you insuring homes, and where do you actually have to make changes? There are very complex engineering projects that sometimes will make sense, sometimes they won’t.
比爾·蓋茨：氣候變化適應(yīng)涉及的范圍很廣。在富裕國家，這意味著你必須審視森林火災(zāi)的風(fēng)險，看看它究竟會在哪里發(fā)生？有適當(dāng)?shù)钠琳蠁?？你必須考慮海平面上升的問題，你在哪些地方為房屋投保，哪些地方實(shí)際上必須做出改變？有一些非常復(fù)雜的工程項(xiàng)目，有時它們有意義，有時沒有意義。
To me, adaptation is the strongest case, that it is a moral argument that you are going to take all this progress in human development, and reverse a lot of it, if you don’t help the farmers in these tropical zones, primarily in sub-Saharan Africa, but also in parts of Asia as well.
在我看來，氣候變化適應(yīng)是最需要關(guān)注的，這是一個道德論證，如果你不幫助這些熱帶地區(qū)的農(nóng)民，主要是撒哈拉以南非洲地區(qū)的農(nóng)民，也包括亞洲部分地區(qū)的農(nóng)民，你將失去人類發(fā)展取得的所有進(jìn)步，并使很多進(jìn)步發(fā)生逆轉(zhuǎn)。
The most scarce money in this is grant money. There is investment money, where you expect a return. That’s going to have to be trillions as we get these green premiums down to go full bore, and make them fully investable, which once you scale them up, you get there.
這方面最稀缺的是贈款。還有投資資金，因?yàn)槟闫谕玫交貓蟆．?dāng)我們把這些綠色溢價降到最低，并使其完全可投資時，這將需要數(shù)萬億的資金。
Adaptation will always be grant money, and it has to be considered with the health grants you do, with the education grants you do, and within an amount that is sadly limited. I wish rich countries would give three times as much to poor countries, but it is not a big number. We have to make sure it is extremely well spent at a time when the African countries’ interest burden, food costs, and an inability to take more loans is meaning that the cash flows into Africa are actually going down quite a bit right now.
氣候變化適應(yīng)將永遠(yuǎn)依賴于贈款，必須與衛(wèi)生贈款和教育贈款一起考慮，而且令人遺憾的是，其數(shù)額是有限的。我希望富裕國家向貧窮國家提供三倍的援助，但這不是一個大數(shù)字。我們必須確保這筆錢花得非常合理，因?yàn)榉侵迖业睦⒇?fù)擔(dān)、糧食成本以及無法獲得更多貸款意味著流入非洲的現(xiàn)金流現(xiàn)在實(shí)際上正在大幅減少。
HANNAH RITCHIE: And carbon removal?
漢娜·里奇：那碳消除呢?
BILL GATES: Well, carbon removal is the one thing that will never have a green premium, because anything you do, it’s going to cost money. It doesn’t give you a product other than negative carbon emissions. Part of my personal offset is I pay Climeworks about $600 a ton to do removal. There are technologies that will clearly get us to $100. We have several, I think, that could get us to $50. It’s not an excuse in any way for not switching to electric cars or not changing cement and steel, because the scale would be too large.
比爾·蓋茨：碳消除是一件永遠(yuǎn)不會有綠色溢價的事情，因?yàn)槟阕龅娜魏问虑?，都是要花錢的。我個人拿出來的補(bǔ)償是，我向Climeworks公司支付每噸600美元的除碳費(fèi)用。有一些技術(shù)可以讓其費(fèi)用降至100美元。我認(rèn)為，有幾項(xiàng)技術(shù)可以讓其達(dá)到50美元。但些這絕不是不改用電動汽車或不改變水泥和鋼鐵的借口，因?yàn)樗鼈兊囊?guī)模太大了。
If it is usable at all, it is for the part that we can’t get rid of otherwise, the recalcitrant countries, the low-income countries, or if we actually want to have a year that, if we get past where we want to be, that you can actually, maybe have a year where you’d have net negative emissions, because you’re not only emitting so much less, but you do carbon capture greater than the remainder there.
如果說它是可用的，那也是針對我們無法擺脫的部分，即那些頑固不化的國家和低收入國家，或者說，如果我們真的想在某一年，如果我們能達(dá)到我們想要的目標(biāo)，那么你就可以在某一年實(shí)現(xiàn)凈負(fù)排放，因?yàn)槟悴粌H排放少了很多，而且你的碳捕獲量比其他國家更大。
That is a very high reach, because the speed with which this thing is going to come down will not hit the 1.5 degree. If you just look at the different industry groups and countries, unfortunately that is not within practical reach at this point.
這是一個非常高的目標(biāo)，以這個目標(biāo)的速度，全球升溫將不會達(dá)到1.5攝氏度。如果你只看不同的行業(yè)組織和國家，不幸的是，這在這一點(diǎn)上是不切實(shí)際的。
We fund a lot of amazing carbon removal companies. How much that ends up being part of the solution, that will be up to governments. I think having the low-cost solutions there at least give us some very important options.
我們資助了很多了不起的碳消除公司。至于最終有多少能成為解決方案的一部分，這將取決于各國政府。我認(rèn)為，低成本的解決方案至少為我們提供了一些極為重要的選擇。
HANNAH RITCHIE: We’ve got some questions from the audience, so I’m going to move in the last five minutes to a few of those.
漢娜·里奇：我們有一些觀眾的提問，所以我將在最后的五分鐘里討論其中的幾個問題。
We have a question from Professor David Halpern, from Behavioural Insights Team. It sounds like he’s watched your documentary many times. He said, “In your documentary, About Bill, you had a copy of the book, Behave, on the table. How does Bill see the role of behavioral science blend with more conventional technology and his strategy to take on infectious diseases, climate change, and poverty?”
我們有一個來自行為洞察小組的戴維·哈爾彭（David Halpern）教授的問題。聽起來他已經(jīng)看過你的紀(jì)錄片很多次了。他說，“在你的紀(jì)錄片《關(guān)于比爾》（中文名暫譯）中，你在桌子上放了一本《行為》（中文名暫譯）。比爾是如何看待行為科學(xué)與更傳統(tǒng)的技術(shù)相結(jié)合的作用，以及他應(yīng)對傳染病、氣候變化和貧困的策略的？”
BILL GATES: Well, the main area that behavioral science has come into the work I do is in health-seeking behaviors, what’s the reputation of antenatal care visits, or what are the rumors about vaccines, or how do you get farmers to take a risk on different seeds? Behavioral issues where we are a lot more sophisticated now than we have ever been, that’s a big deal in the health world.
比爾·蓋茨：我工作中主要領(lǐng)域包含的行為科學(xué)，是求醫(yī)行為，產(chǎn)前檢查的聲譽(yù)如何，或者關(guān)于疫苗的謠言是什么，或者你如何讓農(nóng)民冒險種植不同的種子？在行為問題上，我們比以往任何時候都更加復(fù)雜，這在健康領(lǐng)域是一個大問題。
It is a big deal in the climate world, because people want to feel a sense of engagement. What are the messages that get them to switch their purchasing to the degree that they can afford to do so? What is the thing that gets them politically activated? Can we have, across the political spectrum, people who largely believe this is an important cause? Those are areas that I don’t bring a lot of expertise. But being smart about how you draw people in, and how they choose to be exemplars in this area, is a very necessary part of the solution.
這在氣候領(lǐng)域是個大問題，因?yàn)槿藗兿Ｍ幸环N參與感。是什么信息讓他們在有能力的情況下改變購買方式？是什么讓他們在政治上活躍起來？我們能否讓不同政治派別的人都普遍認(rèn)為這是一項(xiàng)重要的事業(yè)？在這些方面，我沒有太多的專業(yè)知識。但如何吸引人們參與進(jìn)來，以及他們?nèi)绾芜x擇成為這一領(lǐng)域的模范，是解決方案中非常必要的一部分。
HANNAH RITCHIE: A question from Raman Bhatia from OVO energy. He says, “In the UK and many other parts of Western Europe, net zero has become a political battleground, often pitched as a false tradeoff versus economic growth. What are your thoughts on the framing of the net zero opportunity for wider acceptance?”
漢娜·里奇：來自O(shè)VO能源公司的拉曼·巴蒂亞（Raman Bhatia）提出了一個問題。他表示，“在英國和西歐許多其他國家，凈零已成為一個政治戰(zhàn)場，通常被標(biāo)榜為經(jīng)濟(jì)增長之間的虛假權(quán)衡。你對實(shí)現(xiàn)更廣泛接受的凈零機(jī)會有什么想法?”
BILL GATES: Well, I absolutely believe that the economic model of having growth, we are not going to move away from that. That is why I am so glad that innovation lets India have better lifestyles, or sub-Saharan Africa, over time, have more energy intensification without that being a threat to the planet.
比爾·蓋茨：我絕對相信經(jīng)濟(jì)增長的模式，我們不會改變它。這就是為什么我很高興創(chuàng)新讓印度有了更好的生活方式，或者撒哈拉以南非洲，隨著時間的推移，有了更多的能源集約化，而不會對地球構(gòu)成威脅。
The idea that the political parties would have different strategies for how you go about doing climate change, that’s probably okay. But the idea that it calls into question, okay, is this a real thing, should this be a priority, that almost, to me, is like election denialism where it really undermines government to think about threats in the future, including weather disasters and things that it is supposed to think about – earthquakes and it being too hot for people to live. To some degree, a limited amount, they’re supposed to care about all of humanity and the stability of the globe, whether for moral purposes or reducing the migratory pressure that you come under. There are a lot of reasons why having solidarity with poor countries make sense.
對于如何應(yīng)對氣候變化，各政黨會有不同的策略，這也許沒什么問題。但這種想法會讓人產(chǎn)生疑問，好吧，這是真的嗎，這應(yīng)該是優(yōu)先考慮的嗎，對我來說，這就像否認(rèn)選舉結(jié)果，它真正破壞了政府對未來威脅的思考，包括天氣災(zāi)害和政府應(yīng)該考慮的事情——地震，天氣太熱，人們無法生存。在某種程度上，一定程度而言，政府應(yīng)該關(guān)心全人類和全球的穩(wěn)定，無論是出于道德目的還是減少所面臨的移民壓力。有很多原因可以解釋為什么與貧窮國家團(tuán)結(jié)一致是有意義的。
I would be very sad if climate in the political dialogue becomes like it is presently in the United States, in other countries.
如果政治對話的氣氛變得像目前在美國和其他國家一樣，我會非常難過。
HANNAH RITCHIE: I would like to thank everyone for coming. Thank you very much, Bill Gates. [Applause]
漢娜·里奇：感謝大家的到來。非常感謝你，比爾·蓋茨。[掌聲]
BILL GATES: Thank you.
比爾·蓋茨：謝謝。
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